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As I said yesterday, that's not how human beings think of themselves though. You don't think of yourself as "I am a set of neurons and muscles being moved by the laws of physics"
As I've said before, it sounds like you're pretty comfortable with where you're at in life, which is all these pointers are trying to accomplish, anyway
@Deleted User So I think if I'm translating Roger correctly, then "dissociation" is what we've been discussing as the "awakening" state of "impersonal witnessing", whereas "flow state" is what's described as integration/liberation - the end of identity-based uncomfortableness with life
7:28 AM
"Flow state" is what he describes as "being lived" by life
7:30 AM
Roger's teacher used to say "the ego doesn't die - the human being is an ego, meaning a body/mind instrument ("robot") through which consciousness (awareness + "beingness") functions. Before integration, there is an ego with a belief in personal doership and attachment to outcomes, afterwards there is an ego without a belief in personal doership and attachment to outcomes"(edited)
7:31 AM
His teacher Ramesh Balsekar was the retired president of the Bank of India
Unfastened Belts
"Flow state" is what he describes as "being lived" by life
Well he doesn't use that word, I'm saying that the way you use it sounds similar to how he describes the life experience after integration of the "impersonal witnessing" aspect with the body/mind aspect
10:32 PM
Whereas the "impersonal witnessing" or "awakening" state prior to integration with the body sounds more like what you call dissociation
hmm i wouldn't use flow state in anything like that it's a bit different because it requires you to be focused and absorbed on a task to the point you are not focused on being here and now
10:34 PM
but big part of it is that you need to be hyperfocused on a challenging task
From Roger's descriptions, being focused and absorbed in a task can is being present with the here-now. Even after integration, life remains practical. Integration is letting the functional thoughts that are not suffering come back in (whereas in the "witnessing" state, there are usually no thoughts at all)
10:36 PM
Doing math homework with no suffering is to be present with the here/now
In positive psychology, a flow state, also known colloquially as being in the zone, is the mental state in which a person performing some activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and enjoyment in the process of the activity. In essence, flow is characterized by the complete absorption in what one does, and a resulting transformation in one's sense of time.
@Deleted User So I think if I'm translating Roger correctly, then "dissociation" is what we've been discussing as the "awakening" state of "impersonal witnessing", whereas "flow state" is what's described as integration/liberation - the end of identity-based uncomfortableness with life
marissa so when you say dissociation in psychology dissociation can mean different things
so some of them are derealisation
depersonalisation
dissociative amnesia
dissociation from identity
and i wonder if you know which one he means
so what i think would fit here would be dissociation from your identity and making a vacuum for a new identity to form driven by the years of forcing that you were doing(edited)
10:45 PM
forcing meaning the framework sorry i used tulpa word here because it fits(edited)
10:46 PM
depersonalisation is when you still keep who you are but you see your body doing it's things
dissociate from identity you can still experience being but you don't have anything that makes you you
10:48 PM
you can also dissociate without that experience of being
from your descriptions i think he means the identity
Unfastened Belts
Roger's teacher used to say "the ego doesn't die - the human being is an ego, meaning a body/mind instrument ("robot") through which consciousness (awareness + "beingness") functions. Before integration, there is an ego with a belief in personal doership and attachment to outcomes, afterwards there is an ego without a belief in personal doership and attachment to outcomes" (edited)
also about this i think what he means with that is that ego is separate from identity and when you dissociate from identity then the ego will be what is still there to experience itself
10:54 PM
but i might be wrong
10:54 PM
but from our experience you can just dissolve and just not be aware of anything and body doesn't do anything
i was thinking a lot about what identity is what forms it and how it is created and i was thinking of writing it down or making a video about it at one point because it has a lot to do with did but also explains a lot about plurality in different forms and i think also can be about spirituality experiences in way you describe
when i say new identity i don't mean identity in a way that people think about it in administrative or legal work
it's all you identify with the beliefs and memories and everything in our system it's all so fluid and for example our host woke up recently and just couldn't recognise the ex from the photos that means that the relationship wasn't part of their identity anymore
and i think in this way when you practice your framework you still would keep the feeling of who you are in the world but everything you believe might change
10:58 PM
so for example our host you know they are a big big mess
10:58 PM
they are polyfragmented
10:58 PM
but they all identify with the body and name
10:58 PM
but they have different memories and beliefs and experiences
10:58 PM
so the way they experience life and reality is different it's hard to describe
10:59 PM
i think what spirituality is describing as awakening when it's about drastically changing perspective on life it's when big changes in the fundamentals of identity happen but in the part that refers to the external world and things that you describe in the framework like feeling of having control
10:59 PM
we experience those drastic changes all the time but they are out of control
11:00 PM
and it's all unstable
11:00 PM
but this feeling of drastic change is something we experience every day
11:01 PM
and isn't in some spiritual paths one of the things of leaving who you are in the past?
11:01 PM
all your belongings family and everything about you
11:01 PM
a bit like there needs to be destruction before creation
Let me attempt another "translation from Roger".
The waking life experience is a (multidimensional?!) spectrum that reaches from "completely identified with our body and our thoughts" on one side to "consciousness (awareness + sense of aliveness) without contents". Consciousness can also experience dream states, light sleep states, or be completely "off" (in deep sleep, coma, death).
Integration is coming to see yourself as both, a human body/mind organism as well as the "being(ness)" in which the life experience arises. There is no dissociation from the body, functional thoughts about the past and future are possible, just the "psychological attitude of resistance" is permanently absent. Sort of the "sweet spot" in the middle between complete identification and complete dissociation
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